Jerry Rosenthal started on his process improvement journey where he entered the world of medical device and worked with such companies like Cardinal Health. Jerry’s expertise is primarily in regulated environments such as food, beverage and pharmaceutical production and packaging. He also has experience in plastics, printing, logistics and IT in both local and enterprise-wide organizations. Jerry has been successful at taking principles and tools from manufacturing and applying them to a commercial business practice, and he does that at Lean Six Sigma Expert.
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Related Podcast: Lean in Food Processing
Note: This is a transcription of an interview. It has not gone through a professional editing process and may contain grammatical errors or incorrect formatting.
Transcription of Interview
Joe Dager: Jerry, I’d like to welcome you and could you start out by discussing where you have worked or consulted in the food and beverage industries, and if so what capacity you have served?
Jerry Rosenthal: Sure, Joe. Well, thanks for inviting me, it’s been great chatting with you over the last couple of weeks and getting to know you a little bit better and love chatting about my journey, how I got to where I am, certainly sharing my expertise with others out there to help them be more successful and just, kind of pay it forward if you will. I know you and I originally, we started our conversation around food and fruit processing. You saw I had a little bit of experience in that area, so I just wanted to touch on that a little bit.
I started at company called Scholle, a company that’s probably not very well-known for their name. I think they’ve been around for about 60 years in the Chicago area, but they are basically the inventors of what we would call today, Bag-in-Box technology, a company that was really founded around the principles of, I guess you would say, battery acid. Years and years ago, batteries, car batteries and the like didn’t come with the acid inside. It came in a ceramic container that you would, once you received your battery; you would pour that acid in and you would be ready to go. Certainly, you can imagine if you dropped a ceramic container full of acid, you could have a very dangerous situation.
Mr. Scholle invented a multi-layer plastic bag where you could put liquids such as battery acid, and you would have a very, very safe product. And, that business grew into what we know today, that they serve the food, wine, beverage and dairy industry. You can imagine, milk being shipped in 5-gallon bags. Wine, many of us, are very familiar with bag-in-box wine, a lesser expensive, a lower cost product that you might see in your local liquor or wine store.
That was really my first experience into the manufacturing of materials for the food, wine, beverage and dairy industries, really gave me my first exposure into, what a lot of people know as AIB, the American Institute of Baking which I wouldn’t say regulates but certainly audits and provides scoring, for companies that are involved in this kind of manufacturing. Prior to this I had certainly worked in medical device manufacturing but really didn’t have much experience into HACCP programs, and it really helps. That experience really helped me polish and get more involved in developing programs that were certainly safety-based, but all cost and quality focused. You’ve got to remain profitable, no matter what it is that you do in this kind of industry.
Joe: After Scholle’s you went to Ocean Spray, what did you do there?
Jerry: Ocean Spray, another great, great company. Certainly, everybody’s heard of Ocean Spray, had an opportunity to get involved with them. It just took it to a whole other level, much, much larger facility where there was more direct contact for me with the actual product. Going from Scholle, where it was primarily the packaging materials of those fruit and food products, Ocean Spray was some experience for me where it was direct contact with cranberries, primarily, certainly some other citrus products, other raw materials, high fructose corn syrup, purified water, other sweetening agents if you will. I think certainly anybody who knows anyone who buys a beverage or a product knows that they’re sweetened with other things such as white grape juice or apple juice or other agents as well as addition of vitamin C and other products. Ocean Spray certainly gave me the opportunity to be more involved there, joined them as a Production Supervisor over one of their production lines and over time elevated to the level of Business Unit Manager over their, what they called sauce production.
I was on the sauce. People think of, Ocean Spray, they are the world’s largest producer of cranberry sauce. They sell the majority of products at Thanksgiving, at Christmas, but really have to run their production lines all year long to have enough inventory to meet customer demand at those peak times during the year. learned an awful lot about the supplies coming in, managing the quality of the supplies, ensuring that we were manufacturing on a daily basis good high quality supplies so that when those critical times come, the beginning of November, mid November when people start stocking up on that can of cranberry sauce, they open it up and it’s an absolute top quality product, good color, good flavor, right sugar on hand so that they can enjoy it with their family tradition there.
Joe: In the fruit industry, storage is a major part of it.
Jerry: It certainly is. What, even going back, I’m going to refer back to my Scholle experience. Scholle does in a tremendous amount of work with the tomato industry. Scholle makes a product to be able to allow tomato farmers to harvest, turn their product into a raw material, a paste if you will. It’s stored in these very, very large, several hundred gallon sterile, sanitary, airtight or medically sealed units, so that when it comes time to do mass production, it’s available. There’re various ways of storage. Same thing with cranberries, they’re grown, the fields or the bogs are flooded, the product is harvested and it has a limited, shelf life for when it can be used to optimize, certainly you don’t want a spoilage but to optimize the sweetness level and certainly people think about cranberries as, as a tart product but in there there’s certainly is a certain amount of sugar. There’s an optimal time when you want to have it processed to ensure the customer’s going to get, again, a good quality product, a good color, a good flavor product. It’s certainly considered throughout the year, how do we ensure we have enough product so that our production doesn’t spike or come to a level where we don’t have enough fruit to be able to produce for the marketplace.
Joe: I want to get into some of the difference in applying Lean to the food industry but one of the things that just jumps out at me is, as you’re talking that I have to ask before I forget it probably, think of overproduction as one of the great waste of Lean. You’re always producing it seems in the fruit industry everything that you can bring it just about and, it’s one thing to have fresh fruits, or fresh products going out but there’s always more storage. How does overproduction fit into Lean at Ocean Spray, for example?
Jerry: That’s a really good question. There’s a couple of factors at play, some of which are a little bit out of my expertise or knowledge a little but certainly you have economics at play. There’s certainly the whole concept of supply and demand and provided there’s demand there, you’re going to have more farmers growing citrus products, growing corn and doing those things because there’s demand for it and the price goes up. Certainly on the other end of the economic scale when the price goes down, it certainly drives farmers in acre ridge out of the marketplace, so you essentially create a balance if you will over time for what’s out there, for producers and for manufacturers so that there’s enough in the marketplace.
A company like Ocean Spray is a little bit different. And again, I just want to put the caveat out there, I’m not an expert in economics. I don’t have a Ph.D. in economics, but I certainly understand the marketplace. But, Ocean Spray is a Co-op and what that means is they’re owned by the growers and the employees are all part of that system. Everybody shares in the profits. Everybody has a vested interest to maximize the use of all of the fruit and that they grow the right amount to meet the marketplace. They know year after year what the growth, for example, is in cranberry sauce. Cranberry sauce, tremendous product, Ocean Spray makes the best product in my opinion and certainly I’m biased, but they know the year after year there’s not tremendous jumps in the amount that’s purchased. It’s a seasonal product, but they know the year after year how much they’re going to produce. There’s not tremendous growth in the number of bogs year after year but it’s all about maximizing the yield on those bogs and they consume all of that fruit every year because it’s a close knit group. There’s a limited number of growers. You’ve got to be part of the Co-op to be able to sell within the infrastructure to produce what you have.
It’s simply, for the most part, the way economics and supply and demand is setup in our capitalist structure in this country that all of the fruit that’s produced is consumed. Certainly, you have issues where there’s weather factors, something happens let’s say with the citrus crop in Florida. The yields are down with oranges or grapefruits if you will. Inevitably what happens, the rice gets driven up, and demands go down because you’ve got a higher price. But, the way the system is setup, everything that’s produced eventually gets consumed within the annual cycle. It’s pretty structured, the way it’s setup with enough internal feedback that you’re not going to have so much produced that it sits, and it rots and it goes to waste.
Joe: What are the major differences in applying Lean to the food industry as compared to general manufacturing or service industry, let’s say?
Jerry: I think from my perspective, the one thing that really jumps out to me are what those of us Lean practitioners call the Voices and certainly not the voices in my head, not my craziness but as you look within the business, there’s Voice of Customer, Voice of Business, Voice of Process, Voice of Employee, those are typically ones that I talk about with any typical manufacturing environment.
Let’s just touch on them briefly.
- Voice of Customer, you don’t go to some place, like McDonald’s if you want pizza. The customer says, “I want a burger. I want fries. I want a coke.” This is what the customer wants; this is what we produce.
- In line with Voice of Business, you have a map, the business produces what the customer wants.
- Voice of Process, certainly you have a business process, manufacturing, making cranberries, producing tomatoes, producing citrus, whatever that process is you have a defined process and if you have a process that takes X number of hours, X number of days, that’s what the process is and you can’t go beyond that process.
- Voice of the Employee, certainly you have a skill set within your employee body if you will and you can’t ask them to do things that are outside of where they’ve been trained or where their educational level is. It’s ensuring; they process, and you have employees that certainly match, that their skill set is able to deliver working with their process. That’s typically what’s available within what I call general manufacturing.
What is different about regulated industries, be it food, pharmaceutical, even if you go to other areas, banking, insurance, you have what I call the Voice of the Agency. What is the agency? The agency is any regulatory body that imposes other restrictions or other guidelines on that business. I’ll use a very general example. Voice of the Agency maybe something like the USDA or the FDA, typically in other areas if you sell a product in Europe, there’s other European health agencies that get involved. There’re others in Japan. There’re others in South America. Certainly, when you get involved with, industries like banking you have the FDIC, certainly you have the Federal Government, involved in what banks can and can’t do. You get these agencies that provide guidelines.
Within the fruit industry, the industry has setup guidelines on what you can print on your product as far as vitamin C content. I know that there are many manufacturers out there that add certain products, ascorbic acid, for example, to boost vitamin C content of their products. But, certainly, what manufacturers print on the label is what, this contains 100% of your daily recommended dose of vitamin C. Vitamin C has a limited shelf life. You can’t put a product on the shelf and expect that on day 1 as well as 6 months later that it’s going to have the same vitamin C content. It deteriorates over time. Manufacturers might, when they originally manufacture it; they might boost that to 150%, 180% so that 6 months down the road you’re still above that 100% threshold. But, the point I’m trying to make is so you do have guidelines that say, “What, if you are going to print X on a package, you have to have truth in advertising, you have to have truth in labeling.
Another one is if you’re going to call something a juice; it really has to have a certain juice content, and it’s different for every product. There’s a difference between what’s a juice, what’s a juice drink, what’s a beverage. Certainly, you see on your packaging, if you get orange juice, it may be a hundred percent juice. If it’s a juice drink, perhaps like a lemonade drink or a lemonade flavored beverage, it may only have 2% or 5% real lemon juice in there. The agency that other body really regulates what you can and can’t do, that other typical manufacturers don’t have, and you really need to take that into consideration. Certainly, it’s a little bit of an added cost to meet those requirements, but what, consumers want to pay for, they want to get what they’re paying for. You’ve got to have some of those regulatory issues in place.
Joe: When we look at, the Voice of Customer and the Voice of Process and as you mentioned I think the Voice of Agency is a brilliant statement. In Lean, we sort of categorize and figure out what’s important and what we need to address. With Voice of Agency can we do that or do we have to assume we are going to meet or do everything?
Jerry: Joe, that’s a great question. There’re many people that think, “Oh, the government, the agency, the FDA, the USDA says I must do this. The agency, whatever body that might be doesn’t tell you how to do it. They just say, “You have to have a program in place” to ensure that the end consumer, the customer is going to have a pure unadulterated product. They don’t tell you how to do it. They say, “what, you will provide X level of purity and safety to the product.” It really is up to the company or an entity to put their own programs in place on how they’re going to meet the requirements. Even though the agency may say, “Yes, you will do this. You’ll ensure safety. You will ensure that if, provide a pasteurized product that it is shelf stable.” But, they don’t tell you how to do it. You have to prove out your own process. You can put your own process in place.
Every company has their own; SOPs or standing operating procedures or work instructions or job aids or guidelines and the government or the agency doesn’t tell you how to do it. They say what you should do, but they don’t tell you how to do it. It’s within, an entity’s own control to look at, “Great, what are we going to do taking Lean into account?” looking at different areas of ways, “How do we meet the requirement without being wasteful, looking at cost, looking at effort, looking at the different sources of waste and make sure we’ve got a good balance?”
If we want to be in this business space, we have to comply with the Voice of the Agency but we also have to be profitable, because if we’re not profitable, what’s the point of being in business? Again, this is a society, the capitalist program we live in. Businesses are just not in place because it’s fun. Certainly, they want to be compliant. They want to make a fantastic, high-quality product that consumers come back and buy more and more because it’s a good product. They don’t get sick. They can trust it. But, on the other side, the company certainly has to be profitable.
Joe: You’re saying that markets and even individual organizations can take control of their own compliance and that they’re going to drive it to excellence themselves, even more so than what the regulatory agency is going to regulate it.
Jerry: Yes, you’re right, they should, and they can. I mean it’s really in their control. Just having a more proactive approach, certainly, we’re all busy, we’re all trying to do more with fewer employees. The margin sometimes is very, very tough. Many facilities, many organizations, many plants, are just focused on very, very high volume, very, very low margins. Certainly, from the Lean perspective it makes it very, very tough. where can we identify opportunities to reduce variation, to reduce waste, to create standard work, to put a high quality product out the door every day with a good margin, maintain profitability, deliver to our stockholders, our shareholders, but there’s many of these things that, unfortunately people, “Well, I’m a victim here. I can’t do this.”
Well, you can do this, and I just go back to the example I shared earlier; the agency doesn’t say how to do it. If you dictate in your process you’re going to do something, then go ahead and do it and if you can’t do it, just change it. And, that’s something, your quality system at any of your facilities, they can absolutely do that. Your hands are not tied, but, certainly, if you say you’re going to do it then do it. If you can’t do a quarterly audit, change it to semi-annually. Find something that’s going to meet the requirement, but that your facility can also handle in a cost effective way. I think the key here is not only can be, they should, they absolutely should, and it’s completely within their control.
Joe: Electronic data information, big data, is on the tip of everybody’s tongue. How does that play into all this and how does it play in the continuous improvement?
Jerry: Great question. Years ago, I worked in many operations where we still had paper records. Some companies call them batch records; device history records are what they’re known as in medical device, in food plants as well. It’s a very, very paper-based, which again, it certainly, it meets the regulatory requirement. As long as there’s a record of, great, what were the raw materials, what was your process, what was the output, what quality checks did you do and how did those quality checks turn out, what’s your release process. As long as it’s documented, the government, the agency really doesn’t care. What electronic record keeping has provided is a very quick easy way to do some trending to find out, if there’s an internal failure, “We checked the sugar level for this product and it didn’t quite meet our standards.” It at least provides some data where you can do some trending. You can look in the direction to determine ‘where do I need to do more problem solving’, ‘where do I need to do more root cause analyses’, ‘where do we need to understand what that failure mode was to prevent it from happening again’ and I see more and more companies doing it.
Certainly, there’s a cost to investing some kind of the electronic system. There’s some companies that just simply use Microsoft Excel, which is, a very inexpensive tool for doing some basic analysis, but electronically it lets you very quickly do some control charting, understand variation, understand, pretty clearly see that you can’t see on paper. Do I have an issue between first shift and second shift in the way machines are being loaded or the quantity or the way the sugar is added, the time that something is cooked before it’s filled or the duration of some process? I think electronically it simply gives you very fast awareness on what’s going on to be able to use those Lean tools to say, “Okay, I’m seeing variation between the shifts. I’m seeing variation here. I’m seeing variation in the quality of the goods coming in.”
To be able to decide, great, where do we need to allocate resources to do problem solving or root cause analysis or a fishbone or five whys or whatever tool you deem necessary, to again, drive out ways, drive our variation, elevate your process and continue to produce again. My focus on a high quality product at a reasonable cost that’s going to meet your safety standards, your quality standards, no risk, get production out the door, be profitable, that’s really what it’s all about. Be profitable using your Lean tools.
Joe: When I think about using Lean tools, one of the things I of course think about is visibility but even more especially in food compliance, I think at the point of work is the person needs to be entering the data. Are people driving towards that in food processing?
Jerry: Absolutely. Certainly the days of entering things after the end of the shift is long gone. That’s something that is a huge no-no in pharmaceutical, medical device manufacturing. You enter data at the time of the occurrence. It’s always done in real time. I have seen in the food industry, where it’s been a little bit lax. “Great, we made a batch of some product. Yup, we put in X number of pounds of this, X number of gallons of that. We heated it up. We did X to it for an hour and what, I’ll write it all down at the end of the shift.” That really is not acceptable, for companies are doing much, much better about getting away from that. Exactly, entering things in real time and being able to have, if you’ve got for example, a 5-step process, how do you have visibility on all the other steps, so that when you get to the next step and there’s a problem, you identify it much quicker, then all of a sudden you’ve got a product that’s been completed. It’s on a truck. It’s out the door. But then, you look at your documentation and say, “Oh, what, we missed something. We missed a step. We need to bring it back. We need to quarantine that product. We need to do an inspection. Obviously it’s costly, its delay, and it’s all those things in your various sources of ways, those people that are familiar with TIMWOOD, the traditional acronym for your different sources of ways. It can be catastrophic. yeah, to your point, getting things in real time and having complete visibility and transparency is really the way companies need to be and there’s been a tremendous shift in having that available, in many, many of the big producers across the country.
Joe: The Andon cord is alive and well?
Jerry: Absolutely. It’s nice to do that. More and more companies are doing it, how do we make it visible? If something is running, if it’s not running, red and green, “Hey, I need some help.” Let’s get some help and deal with the issue right now because it’s good for everybody. When you manufacture something and something goes wrong, you let it continue all the way down the production line and it’s bad, it’s poor quality or it’s inferior quality product, not only have you lost that product but you’ve lost the opportunity to make good product. If you’ve got a 1-hour, 2-hour, 3-hour process, that’s a lot of money you’re throwing out the door. Andon or whatever other tool or feature you want to put in, they really are great tools if used appropriately and the motto I like to use, “It’s the right tool for the right opportunity.” If you want to, bust somebody’s windshield, for an extreme example, you don’t use a screwdriver, you use a hammer. It’s having the right tool for the right job at the right time and if you can blend, not jamming Lean or Six Sigma tools down somebody’s throat just because you’re a master black belt and how to do it. It really is finding the right opportunity to say, “This is the right tool that’s going to help us get to a solution very quickly, very effectively to get a higher quality product out the door being profitable. Great comment.
Joe: When I think about businesses and for them to do food safety, to do I is that they have to do it in a way that makes them want to do it and what makes them want to do it is to be more profitable. Is there a way that that all can work together? Is there a way that we can provide the public with a high-quality product and do it profitably?
Jerry: Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve seen companies; there’re many companies out there that they just “do ISO” because they want to be able to sell in a certain marketplace. For example, if you’re a manufacturer and a food processor and you make a certain product, perhaps there’s a very large grocery store chain that say, “Great. I would love to buy your product, but you need to have ISO in place. It’s one of our guidelines. We want to make sure that everybody’s well protected.” You get companies that are certainly, they do ISO because if they want to do business in a certain area or in a certain country or in a certain region, they have to put these in place. But, if they can flip that switch and say, “what, I’m going to implement,” I’ll say implement instead of do, “I’m going to implement ISO because it’s going to help me bring more structure. It’s going to bring standard work. It’s going to bring or put processes in place. It’s going to help us be more effective at what we do.” There will be a benefit to implementing whatever ISO standard in the marketplace and I go back to ISO gives the guidelines, it tells you what the elements are the quality system should be, but it’s up to the individual company to put the program together that meets the needs, meets the requirements. I just can’t state strongly enough how important it is that if you document you’re going to do something that you do it and if you can’t meet that requirement for some reason, change your documentation. If you say you’re going to do something on a daily basis, great, do it daily. If it’s not reasonable, it’s not cost effective, it’s not requirement, don’t. Make it weekly. But then, do it weekly and ensure there’s a benefit to doing it weekly.
Don’t do it just because, “what, it’s something nice to do” or “We’ve always done it that way” another phrase that rubs people like me the wrong way. Do it because it adds value. Do it because it adds benefit. Do it because it’s going to improve, what it is we’re trying to deliver to our customers on a daily basis. So again, if you can change that mindset, flip that switch, I’m not going to do ISO but I’m going to implement ISO and here’s how it’s going to help. When you implement it, have that mindset of, “what, I want to, and some people call it design for Lean Six Sigma.” Do it with a design in mind of Lean. Great, I want to implement this new process but let’s make sure it’s a Lean as it needs to be. This document doesn’t need 4 signatures. You need to have the right people reviewing the right documentation at the right time with the right amount of training and skill and expertise and knowledge, so that we can ensure, what, it’s done right the first time without adding any unnecessary steps. There’s so many companies out there that feel that ISO burden and it really doesn’t have to be. It’s all about flipping that switch, not doing ISO but implementing it for the benefit of our employees and our profitability.
Joe: What you bring to mind to me is that so much of the time we look at the functional aspect of things. But especially in food safety there’s an emotional and social component to it that is really value-driven. It’s value added because that’s what our markets are demanding.
Jerry: I think, certainly you get many people, and I don’t want to make any disparaging comments. There’re some people that come to work, and they do the minimum amount required to maintain gainful employment and that’s okay. There’s people who come to work to say, “what, I want to do the very best I can. I have a lot of pride in our product.” Just like I had and still have for a company like Ocean Spray. I feel very fortunate that I was able to spend a few years working with them and I still purchase their products every day, but there’s many people there that look at that product and they know in the marketplace, people want that top quality, that premium product and it’s their reputation. Nobody wants an Ocean Spray product out there and say “Boy, what, the color isn’t quite red yet, looks watered down. It doesn’t taste quite right because as soon as that happens, what happens to all of us as human beings, there is that social aspect. What if I have something and it’s inferior quality, I’m going to post on Twitter, I’m going to post of Facebook, I’m going to complain and I’m going to let everybody know that I got a poor quality product.
In this world we live in that’s connected 24/7, companies like Ocean Spray and many other companies want to make sure they get a top quality product out there. If something catastrophic happens, peoples’ jobs are impacted, right? If something happens, like happened quite some time ago with the peanut plant that shut down in Georgia, you got all those people that are out of work, and that hurts. It hurts them, their families, and the local economy. It’s just so important to have that mindset of “We’re going to produce a top quality product. It’s our reputation. Every bottle of Ocean Spray, it has our name out there.” People relate to that. Making sure that in that social space, we want to be well thought of with high regard for, a good quality product and don’t want our name associated with the recall. The headline test, nobody wants to see, you now, Ocean Spray product or whoever product, “Jerry Rosenthal’s product has been recalled.” Because, that reputation is just so hard to overcome once that’s happened. Make it right the first time and let’s make the best product we absolutely can for a fair price and be profitable.
Joe: What’s the future for Jerry Rosenthal?
Jerry: I never thought this is where I would be. I’m a mechanical engineer by education, always wanted to go into the automotive industry. In the mid ‘90s, just kind of fell into medical device, pharmaceutical, food, manufacturing and packaging, just got introduced to the concepts, the formal concepts of Lean and Six Sigma in the mid 2000, 2004, 2005. Certainly, I was operating under the, what some people would call the old traditional model of the plan-do-check-act, but really it wasn’t really formalized or I wasn’t at a level of maturity to say, “what, this is what I want to do” and once I got exposed to formal green belt, black belt, Lean, I just kind of fell in love with it. That coupled with regulated industries, just for me added a certain level of passion and excitement and enthusiasm, and I love what I’m doing. I love consulting.
I’ve been on my own now for about 4 years, but however, recently in the last year, I’ve partnered up with a company, Lean six Sigma Experts based in Denver, a consulting company that provides services as needed to, in a variety of spaces whether it’s software or training or project support. I just really love working with them. Wherever the need is, working with companies and helping identify where there’re opportunities to improve their processes, have happy employees or possible working smarter not harder, implementing Lean, implementing standard work, helping them reduce variation and being profitable. I really enjoy this space, and I see myself doing this for quite some time. I never really thought I would get to the point where I could say, “Boy, what, I’m really passionate about what I do.” But, call me crazy, I love what I do. Love talking to people like you, love talking about Lean principles and Six Sigma with the focus, as I mentioned before, “Right tool, right time, and right place.” I don’t thrust it on anybody but wherever I can share some of the knowledge I’ve acquired over the years, I just love to do that and love talking with people like you.
Joe: Oh, I think you did an excellent job, and I loved your input. What’s the best way for someone to contact you?
Jerry: I recommend reaching out to me on LinkedIn. I find that to be a tremendous tool. If you look up Jerry Rosenthal, I’m based in Philadelphia. I’m the only Jerry Rosenthal in Philadelphia, and you can reach me there. Connect with me, love connecting with great people. From there, cell phone number’s there, my e-mail address is there, very simple, JerryRosenthal@gmail.com. Love to have a conversation, love to have a chat. It’s through many conversations like that that I’ve walked into my next greatest opportunity. I welcome anybody to reach out to me through e-mail or LinkedIn.
Joe: Okay. Well, I appreciate it very much, Jerry.
Jerry: Thanks, Joe.
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