David Kasprzak, of the popular blog, My Flexible Pencil discussed ROWE in a Business901 podcast. ROWE is a concept developed by Jody Thompson and Cali Ressler, co-authors of the book, Why Work Sucks and How to Fix It: The Results-Only Revolution. ROWE stands for Results-Only Work Environment.
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Related Podcast: Does Lean solve some problems for ROWE?
Transcription of the Podcast
Joe Dager: Welcome, everyone. This is Joe Dager, the host of Business901 podcast. With me today is David Kasprzak. David created the My Flexible Pencil blog to create a forum for discussing management excellence and the pursuit of work/life synthesis. On this blog, he addresses both workplace and family situations by applying ideas derived from Lean, Project Management, Organizational Behavior with a Master’s level of education in Political Science and Business Administration. While working as a cost and scheduling analysis for the defense and government industry, David realized that the sources of either good or poor performance usually rested in the habits and practices of mind sets of both the leadership and the led. As a result, he began to explore the people side of performance.
He feels that one of the best practices for employee engagement is ROWE, and it can be combined with the best practices for operational excellence, specifically the Lean and Shingo models. David, I would like to welcome you, and though, I understand you are not affiliated with CultureRx, the company that created or are the creators of ROWE, could you tell me how you got started with ROWE, and maybe just a brief introduction of what it is?
David Kasprzak: Sure, thanks for having me on the show, first of all. I stumbled across ROWE in an MBA class, was where I first came across the concept. It was about six months after I had been trained in Lean. From the people side of Lean and the employee engagement aspects in ROWE, it seemed, wow, this is really interesting. While I finished out my MBA coursework, I had it in the back of my mind. About six months ago I received a tweet from someone whose handle was Jody Rowe, who had seen my blog and some of my thoughts that I had put up there on ROWE. I assumed this was just someone named Jody, who will make you ROWE, just like Best Buy was. Turns out it was Jody Thompson, the creator of ROWE, and she and I have had an ongoing conversation since that time about ROWE and how it fits into the Lean concept.
I brought those discussions to the Lean community and received quite a bit of engagement from some folks there who were fairly prominent, trying to bridge the gap between the two.
Joe: What prompted that engagement? What was the key, David? What popped out from the Lean perspective?
David: What popped out when I read the book that Jody wrote with her partner Cali Ressler was the idea behind efficiency in the workplace, and eliminating, they call it sludge in their book, which is called Work Sucks. But it’s eliminating unnecessary meetings, eliminating things that don’t add value. They approach it from a very humanistic point of view, where people don’t deserve to be wasting their time, their precious, nonrenewable time in their lives on things that don’t matter. That seemed very similar to me with Lean saying, “We shouldn’t be wasting the business’s time, and customers’ time, on things that don’t matter.” I saw a reinforcing dynamic between the two there that I’ve been exploring ever since.
Joe: Well, I think the interesting thing about Lean is you look at the process side. When you think about it, even processes are still about the people. It’s still about the person. It’s really what ROWE specifically addresses, because it is about the person, right?
David: Yes, it is. What I find really interesting with the two, and I know Lean purists don’t like this term, but in Lean implementations, I keep seeing, and I’ve experienced a little bit myself where they introduce a bunch of tools. The tools get introduced, and they take hold and you see some operating efficiencies. You get a little bit better effectiveness. Because of that the business wants to grow, and the idea expands, and then at some hoped?for point in the future you get to this culture change where people at all levels are really engaged and perfectly aligned. What I see in ROWE is, let’s start with culture change. Let’s get those people engaged and aligned.
Once we begin with what people’s intrinsic motivations are wrapped around that start to see improvements in their own time and thereby improvements in business performance that makes them want to investigate more tools for increased efficiency. It’s almost like they’re going in different directions. One says tools first to get to the culture. The other says culture first to get to the tools.
That to me, if the two of them, if we could find out where the common ground is and how they intertwine, you’d have something extremely powerful, because you’d get past the Lean problem with getting the culture change, and the ROWE problem with getting to increase levels of efficiency across the enterprise.
Joe: In ROWE, it’s all up to the person, and there’s no supervision. Is the person just responsible for the actions?
David: I wouldn’t say there’s no supervision. I think there’s a greater emphasis on supervision. People in the traditional workplace show up for work. You do a bunch of testings without knowing why. In ROWE, the emphasis is on “you need to know why you’re doing things.” Once you’re aware of why you’re doing things, once you understand the greater purpose and how you fit into, the greater system, the freedom to accomplish that is yours. In some ways, a “results?only work environment” might be a little misnamed. I think it’s more “responsibility?only.”
It stands for Results Only Work Environment. In its origins, it was called Results Oriented Work Environment, but the creators realized that wasn’t strong enough. The Results Oriented was something you could kind of do if you needed to. Results Only made it an absolute.
Joe: What are the differences between, let’s say continuous improvement and ROWE?
David: I think ROWE lacks a method for continuous improvement. It certainly would want it; it certainly agrees with it, having talked to, most creators were on board with that entirely. It doesn’t have a prescribed method for saying this is the best way to operate your company. Whereas Lean has a lot of things that say; this is the best way to operate your company, but it doesn’t have a prescribed method for creating culture change.
Joe: That’s a very interesting point, because that’s what always frustrates me is that when people get into Lean, they just dump onto, “Oh, it’s a cultural change.” But hey, create this atmosphere that you have to have that you’re supposed to have blind faith going there that it’s going to happen. Does ROWE solve some of those problems?
David: I think it does. I think it does it in a very interesting way. I think ROWE is very much aware, and having talked with Jody directly, those folks are very much aware that businesses have a higher purpose. We can talk mission and values, but above that is a higher purpose. I think a lot of us are familiar with the example of the gentleman sweeping the floor at NASA, and they ask, what is his job? He said, oh, I helped to launch the space shuttle. So there is NASA’s mission. Their higher purpose is to put a man on the moon or win the space race, or one of those things. There’s a higher purpose involved.
We’re looking to get people to that higher purpose, gives them a greater ability to focus on just what they need to do to accomplish that purpose, and that’s where the culture change begins. Wait a minute, if I’m at home today right now and not doing what I would otherwise be doing if I was in the office ?? which might be nothing more than hanging out at the water cooler ?? am I detracting from the purpose of the organization?
Or they may have worked in a daycare as well, and they believe their higher purpose is to create a greater society, and the way they create that greater society is through proper education of young children.
If I decide to go and get my hair done today, and I don’t have someone to cover for me, am I helping to achieve that higher purpose? No, clearly you’re not. However, if you’re given the responsibility for making sure someone covers your time, and it does not detract from the higher purpose, then you are free to do what you feel you need to do that day.
That’s why I say the responsibility only aspect of ROWE… I think there are sort of three Rs in ROWE. These are Results Only, Responsibility Only, and Respect Only. I think if you accomplish those things; people intrinsically start to see the need for efficiency, because not only does it benefit the business, but let’s face it, people want to benefit themselves, too.
Joe: So you think that ROWE can reinforce the Lean principles?
David: Absolutely, I think, because not only does it give people greater attachment to the business’s purpose, but it also helps them to see. There’s a little bit of what’s in it for me in everything. I think people start to see, well, I can do this, and it’ll benefit the business, and also I get something out of it. What can happen in a lot of Lean implementation’s great. I reduced 50 percent of my effort, and now I have 50 percent busy work to do for no real reason.
Joe: It’s this feel?good strategy. I was joking a little bit before, but this seems like that 60s and 70s mentality. But here we are 40 years later, and we’re talking about these feel?good strategies like appreciative inquiry, ROWE…You explained the “why” side of it, where I go back to the Simon Sinek book on why…
David: Oh, love the book.
Joe: Yes and all these things are like catching, grabbing people. Why do you think that we’re seeing this lately?
David: There are a few things. I think for quite a long time, and I think Lean thinkers would agree, we’ve been stuck in the Frederick Taylor style of management, which one, hasn’t worked for businesses. And two, has led to the creation of the work sucks mentality. The Office is a hit show, and Office Space was a hit movie, it’s still got a cult following. There’s this acceptance that work sucks, and you’re seeing more and more people saying it doesn’t have to. Technology is now permitting a lot of what was not possible before. You can work from home nearly as seamlessly as you can work in the office, and especially in knowledge work. Your smartphone… I barely even use my desktop anymore; I love my Droid. iPhone lovers don’t send me any hate mail.
Technology is creating more and more ability to do what people have always wanted to do, and that is control their time. Still be productive, still meet the needs of the organization, still accomplish the mission and purpose of their employer. You would love to have people working at a place they believe in, not just earn a paycheck from.
But even if they don’t, technology is permitting what people have always wanted. As that technology continues to grow and develop, I think they’re going to see more and more societal trends towards, hey, wait a minute, my employer says I can’t work from home, yet they have given me remote access and a logon ID. There’s a certain amount of dissonance that happens there.
Joe: Buying into this structure, the typical hierarchy, the typical organizational structure is a failed model going forward. It’s changing, and ROWE supports that thought, doesn’t it?
David: I think it does. I think it’s sort of a little bit both ways. You can still have a tight hierarchy, but it requires that the people who work for you have a much deeper understanding of why they are there other than; they’re there to do whatever I come up with at that moment, even if I don’t come up with anything at all. It leads to presenteeism. Yes, you’re there, but your mind is not. Going back to Office Space, where he mentions, yes, for the first two hours of my day I just sort of zone out. I just stare at my computer. It looks like I’m working, but I’m just not.
That’s an epidemic, and it’s all based on the assumption that people have to show up in a specific place for a specific time regardless of what there is to do. There is any number of professions where time and location are a necessity if you have a large physical plant in manufacturing, if you’re a security guard. However, ROWE is still not exactly about work where you want, when you want. That is an outcome of ROWE; much like cost savings is an outcome of Lean thinking.
Joe: I’m intrigued for the fact that this says that every person is responsible. This puts a lot of emphasis on individual responsibility, doesn’t it?
David: Not so much emphasis on individual responsibility, although I don’t disagree that it does. I think it puts a huge emphasis on individual intrinsic motivation. If you’re a fan of Dan Pink’s book Drive, I think this argument will resonate, that people want to do a good job. They want to do good work. However, they intrinsically understand that doing a good job and doing good work doesn’t necessitate sitting in a cubicle for eight hours a day. If you do a good job and good work in six hours, or if you do a good job, good work at Barnes & Noble where you’re more able to concentrate, why not have the freedom to do those things?
In many ways, and I give several examples in the Work Sucks book where people just couldn’t function in the noise and busyness of their cubicle space. If they were able to work remotely wherever remote may be, they were more able to focus, more able to concentrate, meet their deliverables, keep everyone happy, and have greater quality work products.
However, these folks were chastised, not for the quality of their work, but for their lack of presence in the office. So back to Lean thinking, what is it we value? Are we valuing the quality of the work you produce, or the place in which you produce it?
Joe: I like the sound of it, but I still have this thing is, can it work in an organizational structure? Because doesn’t some of us want to be led, want to be in an environment that there’s structure, even a very structured environment. This is more the free spirit, but not all of us want to be a free spirit. Do we?
David: Actually not. I think it’s an interesting twist. I think this would be some of the management challenge in a ROWE. You’re going to have people of all kinds. Let me backtrack a bit. It’s more about giving people the freedom to work at their best. If at your best is someplace where you could hole up and be quiet, and you like to travel and you’re able to work and meet all your deliverables, that’s fine. If you work better with structure and coming into the office, that’s fine. It’s not up to the manager to tell you how you work best. It’s up to you to decide for yourself how you work best. If you believe in intrinsic motivation people are going to do that.
There are a number of people, when you talk about … although the ROWE people bristle at the concept of flexible work arrangement. The people in a flexible work arrangement … a number of people say “I hate it. I’m so distracted at home I can’t get anything done.” That’s because you’re not given the freedom to … you’re either working at home or you’re not in the flexible work arrangement. It’s not a situation where you can decide for yourself where you work best.
Then you have people who are at the office while others are working at home who have a negative view of those working at home “Oh, they’re just sitting on the couch doing nothing and they’re not here.” That’s what the ROWE folks call sludge. It’s focusing on how a person works or where they work from without any consideration for what’s the quality and value of the work that they’re producing.
Joe: That’s where I have problems with it. What you just mentioned, the sludge part of it. I’m sitting here thinking, David, if I’m sitting in the office I’m getting all that little minutia and all that stuff that just happens. I become responsible for it, and the guy at home gets to work on the cool stuff and only what he wants to do. I struggle with that, thinking from a manager’s standpoint. Even if I believe in it, how do I balance those outlooks? That seems overwhelming to me.
David: Yes. I’ll be honest. I wish I had a great answer for you because I can definitely see it as being a problem. All the buzzing in the office of… The conversations you overhear that can make a difference you don’t get if you’re not in the office. I think that places a big burden on management. I think that’s a great question. That’s something I really want to talk to ROWE people about. How do they overcome that? It is curious to me how the intangibles of the office place get filtered out or filtered in to people who aren’t in the office place.
Joe: Just the perception of what sales guys do. If you relate to the internal people, the internal people do all the “work.” I’m being a little smart?alecky here. But there is that perception that the sales guys are just out there wining and dining. What are they really doing, forming customer relationships? It seems too soft. The internal people have to do the work. To me, that is just a huge barrier for me to implement ROWE.
David: It’s curious. I think the sludge concept is really insightful. The aspect of, “The sales guys, they’re out in the field, and they’re just wining and dining, and running up their expense accounts.” The sludge point of view on that would be, “it doesn’t matter.” Are they getting results? Are they closing sales? Are they bringing in revenue? Are they bringing in the revenue that they’re supposed to? If they’re not, that’s your problem. If they’re able to go out into the field, close a bunch of sales, and then enjoy the rest of their time, what’s the problem?
Now, the Lean side of me bristles, and says, well, “This is nothing more than the cream rises to the top,” and we ignore the systemic problems causing suboptimal results.
It says that a quota based system is the only one that matters. Receive your quota, and you can take the rest of the week off. There are problems with it. That’s why I’m out here talking about it, because I don’t think ROWE and Lean perfectly mesh. I can certainly see places where they don’t. But I do see places where ROWE thinking reinforces Lean thinking.
Joe: I struggle with “Leader Standard Work.” I think it’s a good concept. It gives structure to things and gets things done. But leader standard work is about shared responsibilities. However, we can always take what the other guy should be doing and tell him. Very few of us take that individual responsibility of “this is what I should be doing, here’s my standard work.” Because how much standard work gets to be created by the individual, and I don’t think a lot of it does.
David: I talked to Jody this morning. We hit on this a bit. That very often managers have all kind of “command and control” constructs that they employ in very subtle ways. Where in ROWE, there’s a danger of Taylor-istic style management and cream rising to the top of the fastest worker is the best worker thinking creeping in. There is a danger in Lean and standard work where it’s still dad coming down to check on us. Which ROWE bristles at its core.
This is back and forth I’ve been seeing between Lean thinking and ROWE thinking of creating standards, making sure management is engaged and leading. That they’re knowledgeable about the things that they are asking people to do within coach and guide, versus paternalistic command and control, I have to check on you, and I always know better thinking, as well.
Joe: I’m going to ask a question here that I’ve gotten a couple of responses on LinkedIn. And it says, when Lean fails it’s always blamed on leadership. So, when ROWE fails, is it always blamed on leadership?
David: Good question. Well, now, you’ve put me on the spot. I’ve not been part of a ROWE implementation, but I can certainly imagine that is what would happen. I’ve been following your conversation on Lean failing leaders, and I think it’s one of those situations where it may not be the leader’s fault, but it is a leader’s responsibility. There may be things in the environment. If you try to jump into ROWE or Lean too soon, the organization’s not ready for it; there is this assumption, again, that the leader couldn’t make it happen. But there may have been things in place where the leader was forced to go into something that the organization wasn’t ready for and needed to build for.
If ROWE fails, is it a failure of leadership? Not entirely, because there’s buy?in. One of the things that they did at Best Buy I know is they allowed departments to self-select. If you want to be ROWE, we’ll coach you through it. Don’t want to be ROWE? They’re not going to force it upon you.
If people self?select, say, yes, we want to be ROWE, and they say, well, the behaviors you need to adopt and they don’t adopt those behaviors? There is an implied assumption that leadership can somehow create that buy?in and sell the idea to people no matter what. I don’t think that’s entirely true in either the Lean or the ROWE case.
There may be systemic things, things in the environment preventing the adoption of a new way of thinking, and most systemic things are clearly not the leader’s fault. Unfortunately, they become the leader’s responsibility.
Joe: See, you stole my next question, David. It was, can you prototype this? Can you use a work cell or a group and test this, and leave it grow on its own?
David: Interestingly enough, that’s exactly what they did, as I mentioned, at Best Buy; they started with small parts of the organization and let it grow and expand, something I’ve talked about in green transformations. There are a couple blogs out there looking at people’s ideas. I actually came across some PhD research on this that the best way to transition from traditional to Lean thinking is not by expanding the concept as quickly as possible, as most organizations do. But by deepening it in one or two areas within the organization and allowing and demanding that everything those organization touch interact in a Lean fashion.
Let’s say if you’re a shipping organization, happens to be the one where that department just gets Lean, they have a manager there who really understands it. OK, well then, let’s say all of your assembly lines, when they bring things to shipping, they need to act in a Lean fashion and take the shipping department’s lead, or anywhere else. But you create this vortex that pulls things into it, and I think in many ways that’s what happened.
My understanding of what happened at Best Buy is, they had certain organizations that when others saw, wow, that ROWE thing really worked there. I want to work in that department, leaving the old one to flounder, but we need to make this department like that one. And the idea deepened in one area and then spread to others as it grew.
Joe: I was talking to one of the people at Pfizer’s in product development, and we discussed the OODA loop in a previous podcast. That was his take on implementing Lean. Build these pockets of excellence, for lack of a better word, and leave them act as a vortex and pull them in. Do you meet resistance? Just go around it. Don’t sit there and fight it. Eventually, they’ll be looking from the outside in and wanting to participate if the strategy is good, if the methodology’s good. Leave it grow that way, versus this command and control?type structure that we’re all going to do ROWE now. We’re all going to do Lean and Continuous Improvement now. I think there’s a lot of merit in that.
David: Oh, absolutely. I think there are a few things. In anything, in ROWE management, they all say worry about the people in the boat. The one in the water will either drown or want to get in the boat. I don’t care what, if I told you…OK, let me ask you a question. What pocket do you put your keys in?
Joe: Probably the left pocket.
David: Put them in the right.
Joe: Ooh, I don’t know.
David: Exactly. Something as simple as where do you carry your keys, if anyone tells you how to do something differently, is your first reaction, oh yes, I’ll try that out? Or is your first reaction, well, why should I do that?
Joe: Yes. Your first reaction is, OK, all right; I’ll try it. But the next time you notice where you put them, they’re in your left pocket.
David: Yes, I think it’s a smaller percentage of people than we give credit to that, really; their first reaction is skepticism. Why should I do this? I don’t want to. They’re fine where they are; I don’t need to change, rather than, well; I’ll try it your way and see what happens. I don’t think that’s the normal instinctive reaction. When you’re trying to create change, when you have this, we’re going to be Lean now, we’re going to be ROWE now, we’re going to do CMMI now, we’re going to do you?name?it now, business process reengineering, we’re going to, whatever…The first thing people say is, OK, why are you changing this? Why do I need to change? When it becomes a “thou shalt,” the first reaction from most people… From your marketing background, there are a very small percentage of people who are early adopters. Everybody else needs to be convinced.
Joe: One thing that goes with ROWE is, how does it fit into this structure of teams? Don’t we do everything through a team?
David: Everything you do affects everything else you do, everyone else in a group. If you simply say to a person, here’s your results, go achieve them, and once you achieve them your time is your own, ROWE comes off that way. I don’t think that’s entirely what it’s about. I think again; ROWE is more management philosophy. If you are holding only individuals at the staff associate level to results and not managers, ROWE fails. So your manager is a person who creates the desired results for the team. That can be pretty broad. That can be, OK, produce so many widgets, get your reports done on time, participate in continuous improvement. It could be something pretty intangible. So, your manager has responsibility for bringing the team to the results that are needed for themselves, for their larger organization for their customer.
That might be that a manager gives people individual targets, and then allows them the freedom to figure out the best way to hit it, which in my mind is a lot like Lean, engaging front?line employees in understanding the work and determining the best way to do it. I don’t think ROWE necessitates people work individually to some arbitrary quota.
Joe: ROWE is possible because of the changing structure in a virtual world. We can sit there and manage things from home. I think of the Tim Ferriss – 4-hour work week suggestions, just remove yourself and see if anyone misses you?
David: Yes.
Joe: Is that the reason it works? Or does fundamentally it works just because it’s what it is?
David: Yes. A little earlier I was mentioning, the first order of effective ROWE is, work where you want when you want, as long as the work gets done. In the same way, the first order of effective Lean is, hey, we lowered costs. There’s more to it than that. ROWE is not at its core about work where you want when you want. That’s an outcome. It’s an outcome allowing people freedom, have complete freedom, and how to accomplish their work. I think one of the things where ROWE is a little weak and needs some strengthening is understanding the Lean aspects of leaders as coaches and mentors and not as controllers. I think if you have a ROWE environment within Lean, I think you’ve got something really powerful there. Because it gives the aspect of, you are responsible for you within the construct of this larger thing that helps get us to operational excellence.
So, it’s good for you, it’s good for the business. And quite frankly, if you’re allowing a person to do something that’s good for them, but not good for the business, you’re not achieving results.
Joe: When you bring Lean in, Lean is all about going to Gemba, which is very critical for continuous improvement. So, how you get to Gemba when you’re in ROWE? Because you’re saying that you can be anywhere at ROWE, but then Gemba’s only in one place, isn’t it?
David: Yes, I think that’s a problem for any kind of remote work arrangement, whether you’re a knowledge worker in ROWE, and you have complete freedom, or you’re in a more traditional flex work environment. That’s one that I’m struggling with is, how do you go to Gemba when a Gemba is anywhere? I’ve posted LinkedIn Q&As and sometimes on my blog asking that question, and it’s hard to find a good answer. I think it’s something folks haven’t considered yet. We’re at this crossroads where society alone is trending in a way to where people will work more remotely as technology develops and as we go on into the future. Yet as you say, continuous improvement says you’ve got to go to Gemba and see where the value was created. Well, if I’m creating value from anywhere and anywhere, what is Gemba?
Is it the way I touch the keystrokes? Is it the ergonomics I use when I sit at the table? Sure, that’s a big part of it. But you certainly can’t go into a person’s bedroom where they’re in their pajamas in bed typing on their laptop and look at the way they work.
I guess the concept of value changes, and where value is created, value may in that case be created in virtual space. How do we utilize our systems if we can’t get through the firewall to access files, and we need those files to give our customer what they demand? Is that where Gemba is? We don’t create value by using our IT systems efficiently.
Several people in response to that question have mentioned, as you said sales folks out in the field. They are in Gemba when they are meeting with clients. Well, bringing in somebody else to supervise the meeting or to observe it might actually kill the close. You wouldn’t want to do that, but that’s where value is created. So that is one of those sticking points between Lean and ROWE that I haven’t fully resolved yet, and I haven’t seen anybody else doing it either.
Joe: I think it goes back to probably redefining value, and whether value can be defined internally, because value really an external thing?
David: I don’t know if it’s redefining value. I think it’s really redefining ROWE, the place where value is created. Is that still the place where work is done, meaning I’m sitting in my bedroom typing on my laptop, or is that the place where value is transferred to a customer, and now that gets into IT systems, and things like that.
Joe: We’re talking about a big mind shift here, and a very different way of doing it. You mentioned Best Buy. Are there other people that have been successful with ROWE?
David: Yeah, there a number of organizations. Best Buy is where it’s created, and it’s the Goliath in that world. It’s most prominent and most well?known, but they’ve worked with a number of companies in different industries. Most of them are fairly small. That’s, I think, the norm. It’s easy to create change in a green field. I believe Gap is a ROWE company. We’ve mentioned IT startups and software development companies that are under ROWE. There are some government agencies in Minnesota where Best Buy is headquartered and where they’ve spun off a company to promote ROWE, as well.
Being adopted in different industries, it hasn’t hit large?scale manufacturing yet. It would be interesting to see how it works. It certainly can, because again; it’s not about “work where you want when you want.” It’s about allowing people freedom.
It has been implemented in a number of places. If you go to the goROWE.com site, they actually have a list of companies that they have certified as ROWE companies. It includes a day care. It’s pretty interesting how the change in mindset is being adopted in different places.
Joe: Is there something that maybe I didn’t ask that you think should be answered about ROWE in this podcast?
David: Plug the site from the authors, goROWE.com. There’s a lot of information there, and they are continuing to grow both the concept and the company. And any questions on ROWE, I would love to hear from people, and I will do my best to answer. If you want to go directly to the source, find Jody and Callie and their staff at goROWE.com.
Joe: I think you put a different perspective, especially from the continuous improvement side, that few others have. What’s the best way to get a hold of you? Is your site myflexiblepencil.com? Is that correct?
David: That’s correct. That’s a good way to get a hold of me. You can find me there. You can also find me on Linked In. Between the two, you can certainly get a hold of me. Send me emails to [email protected].
Joe: I’d like to thank you very much, David, for the opportunity.
David: Oh, thank you very much. Hopefully, we’ll come back in a few months and see where this idea has gone.
Joe: This podcast will be available at the Business901 blog site and also the Business901 iTunes store, so thanks again.
David: Thank you.
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