Tonianne DeMaria Barry‘s consulting career spans the fashion industry and government agencies, nonprofit associations and Fortune 100 corporations, start-ups and international development. Her academic training in history lends itself well to management consulting, where she contends that especially in business, the present value of the past is often under-appreciated. She is @sprezzatura on Twitter.
Jim Benson‘s path to creating Personal Kanban was winding at best. His 20 years since university have seen him build light rail systems and neighborhoods as an urban planner, enterprise software and web sites for major government agencies as the co-owner of Gray Hill Solutions and, most recently, helping create better working environments for teams of all sizes as a collaborative management consultant with Modus Cooperandi. He and his company Modus Cooperandi combine Lean principles from manufacturing, Agile methodologies from software design, and the communications revolutions of social media, as process and tool infrastructure. He is @ourfounder on Twitter.
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Transcription of the Podcast
Joe Dager: Welcome everyone. This is Joe Dager, this host of the Business 901 podcast. With me today is the co-authors of Personal Kanban, Jim Benson and Tonianne DeMaria Barry, and I would like to welcome them both. I don’t think a day goes by that I don’t tweet or say something to one of them. It’s been a very joyful experience to be part of the Kanban community, and I want to welcome you both. Tell me, you’ve now co-authored a book. What have you learned from it in the last couple of weeks? What’s new?
Jim Bensen: In the last couple of weeks, that’s interesting. I would say that in the last couple of weeks we’ve learned a few things. One is that when you launch a book, people want you to launch more than the book. As soon as the book came out, everybody was like, “That’s great, where’s the Kindle version? Where’s the iPad version? Where’s the French version? And the books on tape version? Where’s the mime version?” Now that the book is out, we’re actually spending a lot of time recreating the book in a lot of other formats.
The response to the book has been unbelievably gratifying. The initial sales are good. But more importantly, the conversations that the book has started have been incredibly rewarding.
Joe: I think that’s what most authors that I talk to, that they find out is that they learn so much about, I think, themselves and the subject after they publish the book. You’re just at the start of it, so I would imagine that could really take off here in the next three to six months.
Jim: We can only hope.
Tonianne DeMaria Barry: I think what’s been so surprising for us is that there a fairly robust online Personal Kanban community before we launched the book, but now we’re hearing from people who we didn’t know were following online, and who are sharing their stories with us about how Personal Kanban has influenced their lives. It’s truly humbling to see the reach and to see what people are doing with Personal Kanban, and how they are tailoring it to their own lives. So I think we’re learning as much from them as they are from us. That’s what has made this, for me especially, such a wonderful and informative experience.
Joe: Just putting “personal” in front of “Kanban” did so much to the conversation about Kanban.
Jim: When we started using Kanban for software development, we immediately started using it in our personal lives. Cory Ladas and David Anderson and myself. We didn’t really separate out the personal and the professional uses. David definitely went deep into the software development methodology side of it. Cory and I were tossing back and forth how it worked with us as people, especially as people ?? because at that time, Modus had about five people in it and we were all doing very different things and trying to keep track of what we were doing.
What we found since is that the personal use of it isn’t a lighter weight or a degradation of that business use, but it’s actually an extension of informed use of a visual control, so that you know what’s going on in all aspects of your life.
It’s been fascinating to watch the number of people who have come to talk to me about Personal Kanban, or talk to use about Personal Kanban, that started in one of David’s classes. Then David has reported back to me that people who have come to his courses said, “Well, I started with Personal Kanban, I moved it into my office, and now I’m here to find out how I can really make my team excel using your methodologies.”
What’s been interesting to me is to see how the Personal Kanban world and the software Kanban world or the business Kanban the world are informing each other, and people are coming at it from whatever direction is natural for them.
Joe: I think what happens is change happens because there’s a pain. There’s something that causes you to want to change what you’re doing and when people use Personal Kanban all at once, there’s got to be some great stories to it, because you’re trying to cause a change in their life a little bit. Is that a fair analogy?
Jim: Very much so. It’s spot?on.
Tonianne: We had the wonderful opportunity to meet with a client for lunch, and we were speaking about his use of Kanban at work. Towards the end of the conversation, he got this glimmer in his eye and he said, “Can I speak to you about something more on a personal level?” He leaned into us, he goes, “I’m using it at home and I’d love to show you how I’m using it.” It turns out that he has three children that he and his wife home?school and a fourth is still in diapers, and they use Personal Kanban to track lessons and the progress. They use an online board which allows him to check in periodically during the course of the day to see where everyone is with their lessons, and who might be needing help, and in what area.
So he never has to come home and say, “Honey, how was your day?” because he knows. Towards the end of the conversation, he looked at us and he said, “And it makes me a better husband.”
I would say in 20 years, I don’t think I’ve heard anything more gratifying from a client. That has definitely fuelled me personally and professionally since we’ve heard that.
Joe: I think so, because one of the things that I do, is with my son away at college. We just use a bulletin board that we put post?it notes on. Write on it, and share pictures and we share video. We have our own little private Kanban board out there that we post things to do, and things that we both need to do. It is kind of neat, because it is ours.
Jim: And you personalize it, and I think that’s one of the great stories behind Personal Kanban, that people really don’t think about until they start doing it.
Actually this is true for all Kanban. So, with the whole organization for this client ?? and I think I talked about this in one of our earlier chats, their teams were doing their professional group, Team Kanbans, just using Google Draw, and actually physically drawing or, physically, digitally drawing up and manually creating a Kanban, as opposed to using one of the online tools or a white board because they wanted the distribution for a dispersed team. But, they also wanted to be able to customize it, like you can a physical whiteboard. So, they were doing all sorts of crazy things with it that ended up making a much richer environment for them.
So, they would put little pictures of themselves up, depending on whose tasks belonged to. They would put little mushroom clouds up if the tasks were horrible. They’d put little smiley faces or something silly if the tasks were fun.
In the end, they were able to evaluate their work, not only based on how their cycle time, or how quickly something got through, but how it actually made them feel. If things made them upset, then they could talk about that. They were very, very, very good at paying attention and using their Kanban.
Since then, a decision was made ?? and no one can exactly track down how it was made, but the decision was made to use one of the standardized online Kanban tools and this one didn’t allow them to customize their environment. The usage of it started to fall off. Then they said, “Well, it’s just not fun anymore.” But what it actually was, it lost context for them.
In the one that they could totally customize, they could put a great deal of their context, a great deal of their personalities, a great deal of their cultures into it. I think that that’s incredibly important for being able to visualize your work, because it’s not just the tasks you’re visualizing, but it’s the work. Work includes culture. It includes interpersonal dynamics and things like that.
Joe: Tonianne, how did you become familiar with Kanban?
Tonianne: Well I don’t come from a software background. It’s kind of a winding way, my path. My background is in fashion and in history and in business. While on the surface those paths seem completely unrelated, taking a systems thinking approach has been the underlying current. So, rather than separate out components, I pretty much view everyone and everything as interconnected, and forming and impacting one another. So whether it’s seeing what’s going on in the world or in an organization or in our lives, I like to see the larger picture, and how well those components are interrelated.
When a problem presents itself, I tend to think that it’s probably not an isolated event, and I immediately look for a trend or what’s caused it in the past. Then I attempt to find a solution. Personal Kanban allows you to do just that.
Visualizing work helps you expose those trends and it alerts you to the fact that something is going on. Going forward you can change the behavior that got you to that point, and you can address it. The thing about Personal Kanban is that it promotes the clarity needed for correcting those problems and making better decisions going forward.
When Jim approached me, he had been writing another book about social media and he had approached me to incorporate some historical examples, I think it was to punctuate some of the points that he was bringing up and with these different theories of social media. We were tracking various chapters on a fairly rudimentary Kanban. We didn’t call it Personal Kanban back then. I don’t remember, what were we calling it?
Jim: We were just calling it the Kanban.
Tonianne: My first experience with it was horrible.
So, we had the series of tasks that I was perfectly happy using a checklist for. He said, “What we’re going to do is you’re going to take these tasks and we’re going to populate a backlog.” I said, “Well that’s stupid. I have a checklist, what do I need backlog for? It took me a good 40 minutes to populate this backlog, and I thought it was double work and I cursed every second of it. Every time one of us would work on a chapter, we would pull the ticket over.
Probably after a month or so, I was amazed at how we knew exactly where we were, we knew exactly what problems we were having, what was holding us up, how much further we had to go to complete a chapter. And the insights the board was giving us, I could have never gotten that from a checklist. I hated being wrong.
So, Jim definitely won that battle. Through the course of writing that book Jim was offered an opportunity in Washington DC, and we go over this in the book. He had a fairly large backlog of tasks that he had to accomplish prior to moving to Washington DC. It was a six-month engagement, and he was completely overwhelmed. So, he started tweaking this Kanban it and putting it up on a regular whiteboard. I think through that process, that’s really where Personal Kanban gelled for you.
We just continued to blog, continued to write about it. Then when he got to DC, I think that’s when we started hearing from people: getting feedback from the blog posts, what they were using. I believe that’s when you started the dedicated Personal Kanban site.
The first book is but a memory. It was a tremendous learning exercise.
Joe: It didn’t stop you from wanting to write another one, did it?
Tonianne: Oh no. We’ve already started two others.
Joe: Oh, you already started two others? I would think that would do it.
What are the key points of Kanban? What strikes me, and I’ve said this for years and I think this is what Kanban and Personal Kanban does for organizations and people, is that we really compete on clarity. That seems the essence a little bit of Personal Kanban.
Jim: For me, a time management tool, or a personal work tool, needs to do one very important thing, and that is not taking up any of your time, whatsoever. If it takes up any overhead then you are in massive trouble. What I found was the other tools that were out there, while they did help give people clarity, they usually added so much overhead, that it was incredibly difficult for people to stick to them.
When we were first laying out the Personal Kanban book, we were like “What is the barest essence of this that you need?” “What can be built on top of that?” That ended up being, see what you are doing and do less of it, at any given point in time.
With that, you get clarity, because you know exactly what you are doing right now, and you know what is coming up. Over time you figure out what your throughput is, and you know how much work you can do, and that gives you clarity about, my backlog is too big, I cannot promise anyone anything for a while until I’ve cleared some of it out. Maybe I have got to delegate some of it.
My friend Brian Fling in Seattle, on his board in his office, he has four columns; Ready, Doing, Done and Delegate. He actually has a delegate column. He will examine his backlog and whatever he can get rid of in a helpful way; he specifically visualizes getting rid of it.
Joe: The Personal Kanban book… It is not just a compilation of your blog is it?
Jim: No, what we did was that we used the blog for pre-writing. We would float ideas and themes in the blog, and then we would get responses back. What is interesting about that is that the responses that we would get back were not just in blog comments. They were on Twitter, they were on Facebook. They were in conversations with our friends. There was just a wide array of ways that we would receive information back. We took all of that information, thought a lot more about it between the two of us, and then laid out the book, tossed those initial blog posts in as initial fodder, initial writing, and then basically rebuilt the book around them.
You will see stories in the book that look familiar because they were originally presented in blog posts. But I believe after what can only be considered an incredibly extensive period of massive editing they look very, very different now.
Joe: Was the book more of an undertaking than what you imagined it to be?
Jim: No author is going to answer no to that question. What I can say, well there are two things. I knew that this book had to be something that Tonianne and I did together. My personal tendency is to type fast and release quickly. Tonianne’s tendency is to make sure things are stated very well, and that there is a flow and that things are adequately researched.
Joe: You sound like a good paired programming team.
Jim: That we are. That’s another thing. You want to talk about how we wrote it, using Google Docs and being on opposite sides of the country?
Joe: I’d love to hear that. Yes, go ahead, just start!
Tonianne: So there is a three-hour difference, which was always interesting to accommodate for. So in the morning, I would sign on in D.C. and Jim would sign on in Seattle, and we would use Skype, and we would write in a Google Doc. We started with an initial outline, which I would say six months in completely changed, and another six months after that it became unrecognizable. Jim began the initial outline, and then we would discuss it, then I would fill it in, he would look at it again and then I would edit it.
Jim: I am a speed typer. I am a massive speed typer. I will just start spewing ideas out, and I am good at that. But what I am not good at is understanding, what I am not good at is appreciating that I am a speed typer, and that does a lot of things. I am a victim of random capitalization. I will talk about ideas before I have introduced them as I am so excited to get the ideas out.
The beauty of Google Docs is we were able to work on the same document at the same time, using basically paired programming techniques, but using them for writing a document.
Tonianne and I actually used these techniques at the World Bank and at the U.N. and with other clients. Now my friend Jeremy has a new product out called Maptini, which is a shared mind map program. So that if two people are using iPads, iPhones or even just computers, you can share the same mind map and edit it in real time.
What we found is that paired writing, constantly re?informing each other as we are moving along aesthetic, I do think it made us finish the book more quickly than we would have otherwise. Or and conversely, it may have actually dragged the book out a little longer, but the quality of the book is a lot higher, because our tolerance for errors went way down. We just could not tolerate defects as the book went on, because the pairing process was such a constant QA, if that makes sense.
Tonianne: And of course, we track our progress using a Kanban. While both of us prefer a physical board, where we can actually physically engage with the tickets, and both of us use physical boards in our homes. When you’re 2700 miles apart, having an online shared board is definitely a luxury you should take advantage of. So every morning, we would take a look at the Kanban. We would have tickets with Jim’s picture on it, for tasks that were assigned to Jim, and tickets with my image on it, for tasks that were assigned to me. And we would also use color.
So at any given point, we had this visual radiator, that we can get a status at a glance without actually reading the words. I was able to tell how much work I had on my plate, just by looking at the colors on my board and the images on my board. We tried to limit the amount of text that we put on each ticket.
We would have layout Chapter Three, or edit Chapter Three. Then a task underneath it that says, “Jim edit” or “Tony edit,” and then we would move it over. And then, at the end of the day, we would move those tasks over into complete. Or, if they needed additional work, we would put them in some things that we called the pen, which is where we sequester tasks that needed additional action. The next morning, we would revisit the board from the day before and pick up where we were.
At the end of the week, we would have a retrospective. We would discuss lessons learned during the course of the week, or places where our value stream got gummed up.
I think we learned so much, not just from writing the book, but writing the book using a Kanban. I definitely see us changing our process going forward with the next book.
Joe: What part of that process are you going to change?
Jim: One of the things that I think that we’ve learned, and if you notice at the end of many of the chapters and even sections, there are reality checks. Where we basically remind the reader that it’s OK to be a human being, and you’re not going to be perfect at this. We don’t expect you to be a Kanban using machine. One of the things that we had to come to terms with is that we did not religiously use our Kanban. We did not religiously do our retrospectives. We did not religiously note everything that we were supposed to have done.
Some days, we didn’t religiously have our standup meetings. Even though Tonianne and I, were working together, straight on, from what for me, was six o’clock in the morning to about four in the afternoon. And for her was seven to, I don’t know. Some days seemed really long and some days seemed really short.
But the thing is, is that life gets in the way of living sometimes. We have to appreciate the fact. Because we’ve had people approach us and say “I was doing Personal Kanban and it was great. I was doing it for three months, and then something awful happened. I have to go pay attention to it. Then, I could never get back into it.” So they would get derailed. They would feel like since they stopped, they couldn’t go back because they didn’t keep up the rituals.
Tonianne: But the process has been very forgiving for us. We would stop because we had unexpected demolitions to our homes, or pneumonia, or a broken rib, or fire alarms, or illness, or crashed hard drives, as it was.
In the midst of all of this, DC was hit by several really bad snowstorms. Bad for DC. Not at all bad for the rest of the normal world but I had 21 power outages. Now you try to pair right with somebody over the Internet when you have no power.
Joe: You hit on a very good point though. Is that, whether the excuses are valid or not, people lose interest once they start something? What do you think will make someone stay with Kanban over my checklist? I was always thrilled to check off in the to?do column, check something off. And now, I’m moving a ticket from doing to done. That’s exciting. That’s neat. It’s visually neat. Do you think there’s a difference in Kanban that’s going to make someone stay with it longer?
Jim: Well, there’s a couple of differences. One, for me, is that Kanban is transferable. So you can take it from your personal life into your professional life, and to whatever other. And for a group, with Kanban up on the wall and things moving through that Kanban, that’s a direct feedback mechanism to manage not only your life, but the collaborations that you’re currently engaged in. And to?do lists, since they’re linear, since they have small text, since they have no context, they don’t allow you to get that same amount of real?time feedback.
Joe: So you’re saying, with the engagement of the Kanban, especially a visual board, a board that’s right there will put more people in touch with it.
Jim: Right. So, to-do lists are very messy. Let’s say you write out your to?do list. The first thing that a to-do list writer, aficionados try to do is, every day come in and rewrite your to?do list. Well, first off, that’s a pain. Second of all, it’s a waste of paper. Third of all, it’s unnecessary. So, with the Kanban, your backlog is already up there. You don’t need to rewrite it. If you want to interact with it you can go move the tickets around. But they’re already there. You don’t have to clean it up, because you didn’t have a zero sum game finite space in which you are crossing things out. You have an infinite space in which you’re moving things across.
Tonianne: I’m glad you brought this up Joe because for me, what was most revelatory in writing this book was, in fact, the difference between to-do-lists and Personal Kanban or Kanban. If I’m using a to-do-list, how do I ever improve? How does that teach me where I get hung up? What tasks do I like? What tasks I don’t like? It’s not. That’s what I appreciate about Kanban is that you can have kaizen events. You can look for opportunities to improve; you can adapt it to what’s going on in your life.
We write about a situation that I went through where we discovered mold in my condo and within two hours’ notice all my walls had to come down. And right after that we were evacuated for fire. When my husband and I returned to our home, I was completely overwhelmed by this interminable list. How do you know what to do first? How do you batch in a list?
Joe: So the shortcomings of the to?do?list are that rapid reprioritization is extremely difficult because you get a large linear unorganized…
Tonianne: Static, active…
Jim: You basically just get a dump of stuff to do. In the book, we have a cartoon which basically has kind of the devil standing in front of all of the tasks that you’d ever do in your life. And says: “Here’s your to?do?list, get started.” To?do lists are very mechanistic and they bog you down. That doesn’t mean that to?do?lists or checklists are never valid. There’s the check listing movement right now that says that if you’re in the operating room there are some things that really do need to be done and a checklist is probably a pretty good way to do those.
I would make a checklist by making a Kanban in there and physically moving them from one part of the board to make the state change extremely apparent and to make it highly unlikely that somebody would accidentally check off the wrong line.
But the checklist idea of having a finite set of things that you’ve got to do, that’s perfectly valid in some cases but totally not valid in your daily life.
Tonianne: Because it doesn’t show you your options, it doesn’t show you your tradeoffs. Kanban does. It goes back to systems thinking.
Joe: Can you actually have a cadence in a Personal Kanban? Or do you want one?
Jim: Yes, you can. Because the Personal Kanban is kind of juggling apples and oranges, you have to kind of get an idea of what your apple cadence is and your orange cadence is. Those can build an overall fruit cadence but individually you probably want to be tracking like items. So if one of my tasks is repairing the deck and another one of my tasks is to make a peanut butter sandwich, bridging out the cycle time of those two tasks is not going to help me out. But being able to notice, the cadence especially in projects.
So if I have a project that is to build the deck, I’m probably going to build a separate project Kanban for that just to manage building the deck. There is a cadence. There is definitely cycle time. Those things are not appropriate to measure them across everything that is flowing across your board, but it is appropriate for task types or for tasks that are within a specific project.
Joe: In the book, did you sit there and have a master Kanban board and then break it down further into, let’s say, individual chapters and have swim lanes for individual chapters? Or how did you go about writing a book and organizing it? Or did you do it with the blog….
Jim: That is a good question that doesn’t have an immediate response. So what we did with the book was while we were going through the book we were constantly experimenting with different ways to visualize our work. So we created several different mechanisms to measure what we were doing in the book between when we started and when we finished. We created a specific Kanban for the book to track the chapters and then put specific tasks into our shared Personal Kanban.
When we were working on focused chapters or focused bits of research, we would just take a piece of paper and build out a rapid, what we call a mission based Kanban, which has a series of tasks down one side and then gives handoffs between Tonianne and me.
She would do some initial research. I would read it. We’d talk about it a little bit. I’d write up something really quickly. She’d add to it. And so that…
Tonianne: There’s a definite amount of churn.
Jim: And that’s a huge thing, especially with writing a book. But this is also true for software. The linear flow of the columnar Kanban doesn’t respect the fact that work is done linearly. That’s something that we’ve been working really hard on recently is coming up with a series of work visualizations ?? Kanban visualizations ?? for knowledge work and for personal work that show churn. That shows that things can go from state A, back to state A, back to state B.
Do that several times before they jump to state C, go to state E while other ones might go to state C, and the ones that go to state C might come back to state B. Especially when working with our clients who are doing customer support where they have a lot of work coming very quickly that is highly variable.
The ability to visualize churn has become something that we spent an awful lot thinking about. We did for the book as well. So while I wish I could say “Oh yes, Tonianne and I setup this, and we did this, and then it worked perfectly and now everybody should do that.”
What we actually did was we started out with something, and then we improved on it, and we improved on that, and then we improved on that, and then we made a big mistake and then we went back to this thing we did before. So in the spirit of the culture of continuous improvement, it’s the end of a whole lot of different things.
Joe: I think that goes back to continuous improvement and what you started and how you started writing the books eight months later, and your next book is going to be different because you’ve improved the process.
Jim: Absolutely, absolutely. A big part of process, seriously, is not having process. A big part of the process, mentioned earlier, is clarity. So, it’s mechanisms to provide clarity so that you don’t have to have a process in the first place.
Joe: It looks like you had a lot of fun writing the book. Just looking at the different visuals that you put into the book, there wasn’t anything in there that was like… I’m sure there was some drudgery to it, but it looks like there was a lot of fun put in it. Do you feel that way after you wrote it?
Jim: What I would say is that, writing this book is the most fun I’ve ever had, and it’s the most rewarding professional experience I’ve ever had. I barely play some instruments, but I happily barely play some instruments, and I’ve been in several bands. And I’ve always thirsted for the connection that you can have with other people when you get into a musical situation and you really are jamming.
Writing this book with Tonianne, every day felt like that. It was just two people, in sync, blasting through some fun and interesting ideas. I got lucky enough to find someone to work with who would tolerate my unprofessional demeanor and would be able to temper that in some ways and then also let it flourish.
So, you’re right. The book has cartoons in it that are silly. That means a lot to me, actually, that we were able to put those in the book and that we were able to both take delight in them.
Tonianne: Life doesn’t have to be that serious. We wanted it to be fun. We wanted this to be a fun read, and we didn’t want it to come off as dictatorial.
Joe: Well you kind of scared me with the recommendation on the back of the book, though. You talk about visualization and all this other openness, and then the guy who is the Deputy of Intelligence, of the CIA writes a recommendation for it. I said, what’s this got to do with it?
Tonianne: It’s all about balance.
Joe: The other thing that I thought about… Do you think that Personal Kanban and the book has identified the both of you as people from this time forward?
Jim: Yes. You know, process is all evolution. Living is, we’re always evolving into new ideas, new processes, and new thoughts. Tonianne and I have been becoming increasingly interested in the interplay between happiness and successful business. Some of the elements that drive happiness in business are clarity, respect, and the ability to actually act and make decisions. And, what we’ve been finding with our clients is that, if we come in and we help them build what ?? Lean guys are going to call it Kaizen culture, but if we just actually call it a healthy working environment, the people naturally solve issues and problems on their own. The people who were previously labeled as poor performers, underperformers, underachievers, wastes of space, suddenly step up and just start knocking balls out of the park.
It has been phenomenal for us to watch the clients that we have been blessed to have reacted so positively to these very lightweight techniques. Because it’s not like we’re coming in and saying, you guys have to do these five things, and you’ve got to do this, and you have to do that.
We seriously are just coming in and instilling visualizing work, limiting work in progress and putting bugs in their ears too, you have this problem. How might you go about solving that? And then we will work through that.
What’s most gratifying is, when we leave and then we come back three months later, people are seriously running up to us in the halls saying, you’ve got see what I did after you left, because it’s made such a difference.
We just go and we see what they did, on their own ?? not the experts telling them to, but just what they did, because they’re conscientious, wonderful human beings, because they were just given the permission to act.
That’s where I think that, for us, is the investigation of how people work and how people live.
Tonianne: What’s wonderful about Personal Kanban is that it depersonalizes problems. So it’s no longer an issue of, you didn’t do this, or, you didn’t do that, it becomes, this task card didn’t move, and we have to figure out why. I love that. I love that we can address the task and not the politics.
Joe: I understand that. Well, I’d really like to thank both of you very much for the opportunity to talk to you, once again Jim, and for the first time here, Tonianne. I enjoyed it, and I encourage everyone to purchase a copy of “Personal Kanban.” It’s made a difference for me, and, as much as I’ve practiced it in the past year, I would say that I’ve been working on it, I still took a lot of things away from in the book. I enjoyed it very much. So, I’d like to thank you both again.
This podcast will be available on the Business 901 iTunes store and also the Business 901 blog site. So thank you again, Jim and Tonianne.
Jim & Tonianne: Thank you, Joe.
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